Whether you’re a voice talent, a creative, audio engineer or talent agent this is a conversation worth a listen.
We are joined by Detroit based advertising executive, Iain Lanivich to talk about online casting, remote sessions, in-house production, the future of voice over casting, the shift in voice overuse, union and non-union, relationships between post houses and ad agencies and the change in workflow.
Robert Marshall puts on his sound designer and studio owner hat to make for an interesting conversation.
Don’t forget to like our facebook page and if you have a question of your own you’d like us to answer, post it there and we will answer it as best we can.
You’ll also find us on the web at theproaudiosuite.com
The Pro Audio Suite Podcast copyright George Whittam, Andrew Peters, Robert Marshall & Darren Robertson.
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broadcast system high tech for sound
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[Music]
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let’s go
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[Music]
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welcome to the pro audio suite a podcast
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per audio and voiceovers professionals
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don’t forget to check us out on our
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Facebook the pro audio suite podcast
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now let’s get on with the show from Los
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Angeles George Wickham from Chicago
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Robert Marshall from Sydney Australia
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Rob oh and from sunny Melbourne Andrew
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Peters this is the pro audio suite this
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week our special guest is someone we’ve
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had on the show before in fact on the
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first show we have a deep-cover think of
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it yeah it’s a guy I came across via a
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video that went viral about the
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reinvigoration of Detroit at the time he
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was with lo campbell-ewald since then
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he’s moved on you may remember him you
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may not but anyway if you haven’t come
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across him before I think you’re gonna
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find this riveting he’s had created
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director at Weber shanwick these days
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his name is Ilana bitch okay how are you
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you are an excitable chap which is
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probably a good thing in the industry
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we’re in to be slightly excitable though
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I think that’s what’s one of the
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prerequisites of certainly being
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creative so in my question to you being
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a creative director at one of the
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biggest advertising agencies in Detroit
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is you probably do quite a few remote
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sessions I’m guessing and the reason why
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I wanted to get you on the show is
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because we’ve never actually asked
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anybody in your position how they feel
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about people working like myself
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remotely the issues of quality of being
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able to direct having eye-to-eye contact
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what’s the main thing if you ever do a
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remote session that actually does bug
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you uh I don’t really have much of an
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issue with working remotely you know
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I’ve done that you know throughout most
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of my career you know whether it’s you
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know if you’re in Detroit and let’s say
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you hire a challenge and you know
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another state or somebody in New York or
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LA you’re constantly having to patch
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into their studios anyway so like I
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think for most of my career I kind of I
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learned that that was pretty much the
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norm of you know not being able to see
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the person I’m working with so I don’t
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think there’s really you know I’m
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obviously if I’m sitting in the room
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with someone I feel like I do you give
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them easier tareq ssin and you know they
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can understand what I’m saying but I
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haven’t really had an issue there and I
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definitely have an end
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she from a quality standpoint so what
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sort of technology have you used in the
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past because I should you know mention
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that Robert Marshall is with us is the
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founder of source connect all those
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elements is that the standard for you or
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is it still eyes to him you know I think
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it like right now in my current position
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I’m doing a lot of social media work and
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with social media you’re kind of taught
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to build everything not dependent on
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sound all right so we’re actually not
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using a whole lot of voiceover and most
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of the executions that we create right
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now but it seems like what we’re doing
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more of than that I ever recall doing is
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case study videos presentations
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you know presentations not not to sell
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work to clients but no and often
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creating the clients presentation you
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know in order to like one of my one of
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my clients with General Motors you know
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so we might do presentations for General
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Motors to then go on I’m an investor
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Roadshow or things like that so a lot of
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the voiceover that I’ve been doing
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recently has been for presentation
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working for case study videos you know
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and in that case you know we’re not
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looking for top to your talent we’re
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looking for somebody who sounds right
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you know for the story that we’re
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telling and we’re looking for somebody
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that has a nice clear and clean read so
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I know I have an in-house video
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production team that we usually do for
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kind of like smaller to medium budget
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jobs and they tend to use voice or comm
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I don’t know if there’s a specific
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reason they choose voices.com over some
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of the other tools out there but a lot
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of times we’ll just write a script you
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know hand it over to our video team next
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you know you know sometimes few hours
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later they’ll come back with several
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different reads and then we could react
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to those and in some cases you know
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we’ll go with what we were provided and
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in other cases we’ll actually schedule a
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live record that makes the scene yeah
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yeah it’s funny you should say voice
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just come because they was certainly in
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the knees a lot and still continue to be
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not for good reasons unfortunately but
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that’s another story in itself so how do
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you how do you see the voice other
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industry changing then I mean apart from
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that the mechanics of it the style of
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voice the delivery you’re looking for
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how much is
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that changed in the in the maybe the
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last decade I mean I think the quality
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level
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I know what we’re seeing right it seems
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like there was a big explosion of just
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anybody and everybody creating as much
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content as possible and kind of shoving
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that into the internet and I feel now
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you know the metrics are starting to
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show that that doesn’t work you know
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that the lower quality content you know
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just basically doesn’t get the
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engagement you know that you know most
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of our clients want you know it’s not
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getting the eyeballs on it so it’s kind
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of like we’re going back to you know
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higher quality content you know even for
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something as simple as a Facebook post
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or a Twitter post I know you know on my
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client you know we’re starting to say
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post less but higher quality post and
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then you know and that’s everything from
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you know the video the motion and the
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animation you know the voice-over the
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sound design so we’ve been putting our
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efforts into creating you know what we
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kind of call hero content you know and
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then you know figuring out how to kind
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of do the day-to-day stuff you know
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without as much effort and then
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basically you know put on most of our
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effort in most of our no budget into you
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know the here like a higher quality
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stuff so I think you know with the
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explosion of podcast like what we’re on
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right now and you know obviously all the
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voice tools like Alexa’s and Google
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homes and things like that know which
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we’re really just kind of starting out
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and figuring out you know how that works
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from a marketing and advertising
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standpoint I mean I think audio is you
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know just as you know there’s there’s
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more tools for audio now than ever
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there’s more people listening the
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product cast I think it’s just like any
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other you know kind of newer nothing
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podcasts or something newer but you know
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I’ll be honest I’ve heard clients
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reference wanting a podcast more in the
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last probably a year and a half to two
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years than I have in the last decade so
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everybody’s kind of eyes are open to
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these different voice tools and voice
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communication methods but I don’t think
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everyone has a clue what’s involved and
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actually you know you know putting them
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together and keeping them going I’m
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interested so you mentioned in it
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talking about you
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post and audio production and all the
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rest of it I’m interested to know about
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budgets in general like you know it’s
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all well and good that a client turns
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around and says I I’d like a podcast but
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when their client turns around says I’d
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like a podcast and I’ve got 100 bucks a
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week does that just mean we turn around
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and say then ok we’ll we’ll squeeze a
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podcast into a hundred dollars a week or
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do we turn around and go well if you
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want to do it properly then it’s going
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to cost you three hundred dollars a week
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for anybody else but I know for my
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standpoint I would be pretty honest with
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what they have to do in order to make it
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effective you know for example if you’re
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a brick if you’re a brand that can’t
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commit to an ongoing podcast on a weekly
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basis you know for you know a year or
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longer then you need to figure out a
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different way to go about it for example
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I was working with a client about a year
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and a half ago where we were planning a
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podcast and I think there’s like a
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perception that it’s really simple I
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will just throw somebody in the studio
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and we’ll basically record a whole bunch
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of stuff and you know we’ll edit it down
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it will publish it but they’re not
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really thinking about the fact that you
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know how are you building a you know a
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listening audience and keeping keeping
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that audience you know kind of going
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week after week so one of our
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recommendations was to do one of two
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approaches either basically partner with
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somebody who’s already got that existing
08:35
following you know with an audience that
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reaches who you want to go after and
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figure out how to align your
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storytelling with their messaging and
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then approach them with an idea that
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would be one way to go about it or like
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basically kind of like using the podcast
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as an influencer and then the other
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approach would be to do more of like a
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limited run series so do maybe a
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sponsored podcast that’s six to eight
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episodes you know around us a specific
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topic so that you’re not creating an
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expectation that there’s anything to
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come after that I say so much let’s say
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let’s call it rubbish because that’s
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what it is there’s so much rubbish out
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there that you you turn on a podcast and
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you try to listen to it and you can’t
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even understand what’s being said well
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perfectly the same client you know that
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I’m referring to when I was playing in
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the podcast about a year and a half ago
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I you know we had mapped everything out
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we could
09:25
kind of what our topic would be what
09:27
would our you know the format of you
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know our 68 episodes we figured out a
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line of potential gas and the one thing
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that we hadn’t figured out yet was who
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is going to be the host and in this
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specific case the client had suggested
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that they wanted one of the members of
09:42
their team to be the host and it wasn’t
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really the best scenario you know so we
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tried to do a couple trial runs you know
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we recorded it you know we have you know
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kind of a state session you know where
09:54
we have somebody playing the role of the
09:55
guest and it basically bombed and the
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whole idea fell apart you know from that
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point forward because we didn’t really
10:03
have like our biggest advocate advocate
10:07
internally it was going to be the host
10:08
of this podcast realized that they
10:10
weren’t the right person for it and it
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kind of just fell apart how many times
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does that happen to you Robert where the
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podcast falls apart know someone comes
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in and says I want my manager to be the
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voice-over of all the voice of this
10:25
product and you have to try and convince
10:27
them that that’s probably not such a
10:29
good idea
10:29
so I usually don’t get really into the
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casting or decision-making there at all
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I’ve certainly done many spots where the
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agencies that have said it’s a hard and
10:43
fast rule that whatever people who work
10:46
for the agency don’t do the voice-over
10:48
I’ve certainly done many spots where
10:50
it’s certainly creative directors and
10:52
writers who end up being the voice over
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on campaigns and there’s actually
10:58
something nice about that because
10:59
usually they just know what they want
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and they were very self directing and it
11:03
goes very smooth so I I don’t personally
11:08
mind that it’s a little bit you know of
11:10
a feedback loop and there’s all kinds of
11:12
other issues with that and they never
11:14
actually get paid a dollar like they’re
11:16
supposed to be and so I’ve certainly
11:19
seen plenty of times where you know like
11:22
the wrong person is casted and it takes
11:25
too long to do something because you
11:28
know like and often the reason why that
11:31
happens to be honest isn’t because like
11:33
you know the agency casts who they want
11:35
but the agency doesn’t have
11:37
like the the client then hears it and
11:42
they want something completely different
11:43
and so the agency is like kind of there
11:47
they’re a little bit too insular with
11:48
with their concept of something and it
11:50
might certainly be better but in the end
11:52
it’s the client who’s buying it and so
11:54
they end up with two ideas that are not
11:57
meeting like here’s the idea but here’s
11:59
the talent and the two or not they’re
12:01
not intersecting lines essentially the
12:04
greatest one for me in assets you’re
12:05
that same question you posed AP is back
12:08
in my radio days I did 15 18 years of
12:12
radio was the classic of the account
12:15
exec walking into the studio and saying
12:17
other clients going to voice this one oh
12:19
yeah always a rip snorter and you could
12:23
usually guarantee that it would be those
12:26
spots that two weeks later the account
12:28
exec would again be standing in your
12:30
studio saying the clients saying they’re
12:32
not working you know I haven’t had a
12:38
situation where the client was the
12:39
talent you know I see it all the time
12:41
and I stand with a lot of you know ads
12:43
out there and you know I I don’t know I
12:46
guess I’ve got mixed opinions on in some
12:48
cases I think it could you know be
12:49
transparency and it could be authentic
12:51
you know us you know when you’ve got the
12:53
CEO of a company leading your marketing
12:56
campaign and speaking on behalf of you
12:58
know the point of view of that company
13:00
you can’t get much more authentic than
13:03
that you know but when it when when it
13:05
starts to feel forced you know it we use
13:07
the term retail messaging you know heavy
13:09
sales oriented offer based messaging and
13:12
you’ve got a leader of the company doing
13:14
that type of work it almost feels lazy
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to me like like we didn’t want to pay
13:19
for talent so we’re just kind of shoving
13:21
you know one of our marketing leads or
13:23
something like that in the role I got a
13:25
classic there I love the way you look
13:28
this was easy I’m talking like 92 or
13:32
something I was working in Brisbane at a
13:33
radio station up there and and the local
13:36
butcher shop decided that we’re gonna
13:38
run some spots on the radio station and
13:40
decided it would be a great idea if
13:41
their apprentice whose name I couldn’t
13:44
even remember let’s call him Joe for the
13:46
sake of it that Joe should voice their
13:49
commercials
13:50
so Joe came in and was probably 16 17
13:53
pimply-faced and tried to read these
13:56
commercials and and everyone in the room
13:58
was – shaking their heads when their
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client went ah that’s great yet let’s
14:02
run with it slow yes terrible five hours
14:05
of editing later it finally went to air
14:06
and yes sure enough a week later that
14:08
the campaign got pulled because nothing
14:10
was being sold yeah the only one of
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those campaigns had ever worked in this
14:14
duel is gunned down into the baptizing
14:16
history is the Remington ed I loved it
14:18
so much I bought the company well
14:20
there’s there’s a bunch of them there’s
14:22
there’s Wendy’s and there’s Papa John’s
14:24
and there’s whatever the coat factory
14:28
what’s it called there’s probably a ton
14:31
where the someone in the company is the
14:34
spokesperson for it but I think Eanes
14:37
right it’s got to be the right person
14:39
absolutely yep now if you ever have a
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session in where it’s going horribly
14:44
wrong and you’ve had to sort of end the
14:46
session and get somebody else to voice
14:47
something I never ask you know and now I
14:50
haven’t worked in a whole ton of
14:52
broadcast on television but I haven’t
14:56
really ran in you know I mean I’ve run
14:57
into scenarios where we were trying to
14:59
get reeds and just no matter who we read
15:00
no not right not right not right you
15:04
know and you end up going through way
15:06
more than what you wanted to go through
15:08
and you kind of feel like at the end of
15:09
the day and I should have just you know
15:11
cast somebody for this as opposed to
15:13
just you know putting it out there for
15:15
everyone but for the most part I guess
15:17
I’ve been pretty lucky and I’m getting
15:19
pretty solid talent and I’m sort of
15:21
interested from your point of view
15:23
receiving all those auditions for the
15:26
jobs that you put out there in terms of
15:28
time and money is it not worth your
15:31
while just to cast the person you want
15:34
and pay them to do it yeah I don’t I
15:37
don’t have a strong point of view on
15:38
this one so when I started at my current
15:41
agency I inherited a video on site video
15:45
production team so in my prior role I
15:48
usually dealt with third-party video
15:51
production and post and when I came into
15:55
this agency you know a lot of the I
15:58
would say day-to-day work was being
16:00
handled by you know our internal video
16:02
production team and they just
16:04
you know whatever it was voiceover they
16:06
didn’t really cast anybody in sessions
16:08
more or less they just used the online
16:10
tools but that’s also because they
16:13
didn’t really have creative directions
16:15
it was more or less a design studio or
16:18
video production studio that they just
16:20
took request and just execute it so when
16:22
I started the goal was to build you know
16:25
a more creative agency practice you know
16:27
traditional roles of copy editor
16:30
copywriters and art directors and
16:31
creative directors and so we actually
16:34
pushed this team to start you know doing
16:37
casting but when it was quick turnaround
16:40
and you know I need something in the
16:42
next two days and it’s for kind of a low
16:44
budget piece like a case study video or
16:47
for a presentation we kind of just
16:50
didn’t argue it you know but if we were
16:52
doing ads for our client
16:54
you know we tended to you know at least
16:56
patch somebody in and catch somebody for
16:58
the role so is that because it’s a Union
17:00
non-union thing or you talked about the
17:03
payments is that the reason do you think
17:04
you know I’m on my side you know my
17:06
agency is not a signatory sad so you
17:09
know most of the talent that we use and
17:11
most of the work that we’re doing is for
17:13
social media for PR purposes you know
17:16
primarily all digital so we don’t tend
17:18
to go through Union and less you know
17:20
our client is kind of demanding it or if
17:22
you know there’s a certain circumstance
17:23
that we need to um I don’t think it’s
17:27
really I think it’s just that kind of
17:29
what this team was using before I got
17:32
there and they just kind of um you know
17:34
stuck to it what about you Robert do you
17:36
use mainly psyche talent or you
17:39
non-union most everything we do is sag
17:42
and AFTRA there I mean there is a fair
17:44
amount of stuff that gets done non-union
17:46
what would actually sometimes happens is
17:49
that if it’s a you know like the
17:52
agency’s a signature but they have some
17:54
project that doesn’t have a budget so
17:57
then what they do is they just have the
17:58
whole thing produced through somebody
18:00
else because then they’re just paying a
18:02
fee and we didn’t know that they hired
18:04
at non-union talent so it becomes like a
18:07
way around that situation for them but
18:10
I’d say like 80% of what we do is is
18:13
Union and we don’t get into the casting
18:16
too much
18:17
the way casting used to happen for us is
18:21
like I mean I remember back in the day
18:24
when we’d actually do castings and
18:25
people would come in but if the agencies
18:29
want us to do the casting because they
18:31
don’t want to rip through you know five
18:34
hundred files and they just want us they
18:35
kind of trust us to have a at least a
18:38
good idea of what they’re looking for so
18:39
um we used to just use voicebank and
18:44
then we would call that down to
18:47
twenty-five or fifty or maybe a hundred
18:50
at the most of you know for them to pick
18:52
what does happen now that voice bank
18:56
went by the way of voices.com is that
18:59
you just sort of know who the agents are
19:02
and you just have a group email and
19:05
you’re like here’s the direction send
19:09
here’s where you upload your files to
19:11
done and then we go through them and so
19:16
that’s sort of like what casting has
19:17
become for us
19:19
you know just from but it used to go
19:23
through voice bank and then sort of the
19:25
whole casting thing at least from the
19:27
Union perspective just blew up and I
19:29
know that there’s redefining space now
19:33
in a sense hmm so Robert how do you find
19:36
dealing when you’re dealing with an ad
19:37
agency like you know Ian being a
19:39
creative guy how do you how do you how
19:41
is that changed for you in the last you
19:43
know decade
19:44
hasn’t really other than honestly just
19:47
the in-house thing so so you know my
19:51
question – Ian Moir so would be like how
19:53
how is it going at a house compared to
19:56
in-house and I know that’s like a really
19:59
tough question to answer but certainly
20:02
for us that’s changed the business
20:04
landscape but the work itself the
20:06
workflow really hasn’t changed some of
20:10
the biddings changed I mean it’s no
20:12
longer hourly for the most part it
20:15
really is like you know ferm bid and so
20:20
that’s that’s changed but once once
20:22
you’re doing like as the engineer not
20:23
the business side of it that hasn’t
20:25
changed
20:27
we you know like I’m not getting into
20:28
casting that much if at all
20:31
so I always get that question a lot when
20:33
someone finds out that I you know do
20:35
sound design and makes for TV
20:36
commercials oh here’s my demo I’m like
20:38
wrong guy like nice but really this this
20:45
is just gonna flow through your agent
20:46
and that’s who’s gonna get the request
20:48
for a wonder why you know additions my
20:50
email with my job it’ll make sense the
20:57
question was that Robert asked Ian how
20:59
is the difference between working in our
21:00
supposed to our house in the post house
21:03
I mean it’s nice to have an in-house
21:05
because you’ve got them right there
21:06
right you know so I can activate on at
21:08
any point in time and the way that you
21:10
know we’ve handled them you know
21:12
staffing for our clients you know we
21:15
kind of tree producers and editors very
21:18
much like copywriters and art directors
21:20
you know we don’t we didn’t set up a
21:22
system where there’s a difference
21:23
between you know what some agencies
21:25
consider creative services versus
21:27
production services to us it’s it’s all
21:29
one thing so if you want to spend 20
21:31
hours with an art director messing
21:33
around with a layout or you know I
21:35
wanted to create a identity that’s no
21:38
different than sitting there with an
21:40
editor and messing around with some you
21:42
know video footage and you know seeing
21:44
what you can create out of it one of the
21:46
things went you know I noticed when when
21:49
I started in my current agency you know
21:51
well you know my prior agency you know
21:54
editors were editors producers were
21:57
producers shooters were shooters and
21:59
when I came into my new role it was like
22:02
everybody did everything no so I had a
22:04
crew of they all had the title producer
22:07
but they were all editing they were all
22:09
you know you know shooting cameras they
22:11
were all doing photography they were all
22:13
actually producing jobs you know so one
22:16
of the things that we did you know what
22:18
I started to kind of you know really
22:19
build you know the more creative
22:21
practice was being honest with what our
22:24
capabilities were you know before I was
22:25
there they were pretty much looking at
22:27
it as a revenue stream and trying to
22:29
shove every project through our in-house
22:30
video team even if the work wasn’t right
22:33
for that team or not you know so I think
22:35
what we do is we look for no matter what
22:38
we look for who’s the best you know to
22:40
handle the job you know whether it’s
22:42
in-house or out of house but in a lot of
22:44
cases
22:45
especially when you’re working in social
22:46
media it’s nice that maybe haven’t have
22:49
you know a production company or a post
22:51
production company kind of do the
22:52
initial set of content but then transfer
22:55
that footage in-house so we can do a
22:56
variety of different social executions
22:58
or cut down I haven’t we do a lot of
23:01
we’re starting to do a whole lot of
23:02
stuff now with like Instagram stories
23:04
and I’m yet to meet a post production
23:07
house that knows how to do an Instagram
23:10
story or understand how it all works you
23:12
know they all know that it’s vertical
23:14
video but they don’t really understand
23:16
how it works in different chapters and
23:17
how its kind of linear and chase zones
23:20
and things like that so I feel like it’s
23:22
easier to have them kind of shoot the
23:25
video or edit the initial you know video
23:28
but then send that in-house and our team
23:30
could kind of become experts in cutting
23:31
it for the different social platforms it
23:33
is interesting because I do think a lot
23:36
of the post houses as we think of it
23:38
they’re holding on to that broadcast
23:42
30-second spot to dear life and you know
23:46
that’s that’s changing it’s it’s much
23:48
more digital these days everything comes
23:50
with if there’s a 30 and a 15 there’s
23:53
now also a digital spot almost always
23:55
and I think that the the next thing is
23:59
for and it’s actually happening all the
24:01
time you know like the 30 and the 15
24:03
fall off and it’s just digital and then
24:05
all of a sudden you’re like oh there’s
24:07
something wrong with this thing it’s a
24:08
47 seconds long it’s like no no longer
24:14
in the 30 second world and so like you
24:17
know like having been in it for so long
24:19
I definitely see the post houses being
24:21
in that rut and trying to fit everything
24:24
into that context but and I think I
24:28
think one thing that’s really
24:29
interesting to me and I was gonna ask in
24:31
like where do you see 3d coming into all
24:35
this is this any is 3d any good from a
24:39
marketing perspective or is it just a
24:41
toy that’s gonna kind of go away do you
24:44
think and be like what womp
24:47
are you talking more specifically about
24:49
like like 3d and a sense of like VR yeah
24:53
like VR exactly yep you know I mean
24:57
there’s a novelty to it
24:59
you know you can create some really cool
25:00
immersive experiences with it you know
25:02
the best that I’ve seen it uses more in
25:05
an event space because what’s cool about
25:07
VR least when you have a headset on is
25:09
it can kind of create a feeling and like
25:12
if you’re on a you know if you’re on a
25:15
roller coaster you know in a VR you
25:17
actually feel your stomach drop right
25:19
and you can’t really do that you know by
25:21
just watching you know traditional video
25:23
I think the issue with is from a
25:26
marketing standpoint is that you’re
25:28
always trying to hit as many people as
25:30
possible and those people are not going
25:33
to be sitting at their desks with a set
25:34
of VR goggles sitting right next to them
25:36
waiting for the next VR thing to scroll
25:38
up in their Facebook future so you’re
25:40
always gonna you know reduce your
25:42
content to be you know what your largest
25:45
audience is going to be able to
25:46
comprehend or you know experience you
25:49
know without having to do anything extra
25:51
do you do you think there’s any place
25:53
for it for like you know more dedicated
25:56
experiences where someone’s like here’s
25:58
our product walk around it yeah
26:01
definitely any in Facebook’s been
26:03
rolling out some newer things we I
26:04
Facebook was actually in the office a
26:06
couple days ago and late last week and
26:09
you know we were reviewing some of their
26:10
do you know VR formats but it’s not
26:14
really true VR it’s more a lot kind of
26:17
like 360 you know but they kind of faked
26:20
it in a way where it kind of feels like
26:22
VR I mean I still think you’re like to
26:25
your point yes you can have a more
26:27
immersive experience I could walk around
26:28
the vehicle in a VR setting I don’t have
26:30
to go to a showroom in order to do that
26:32
you know I can experience a museum in a
26:36
you know through VR I don’t have to
26:38
actually go there I think there’s a lot
26:40
you can do with it but it’s kind of for
26:42
the audience once I’ve already got you
26:44
you know I think when you’re trying to
26:45
do just straight-up awareness messaging
26:47
which is the bulk of advertising it’s
26:50
difficult to use those type of formats
26:52
in that situation unless you have
26:54
somebody in kind of a controlled
26:56
environment like an event where you can
26:58
kind of give them you know a specific
27:00
experience where you hand them a pair of
27:02
headsets you know you haven’t put it on
27:04
and then you kind of control that
27:06
experience I think when you’re dealing
27:08
with like social platforms you know to
27:09
you know trying to just have a VR
27:13
experience or even a 360 video or a 360
27:15
photo come up in your feed when people
27:17
are scrolling through it at such a fast
27:19
pace you know they’re probably going to
27:22
just pass by it because they don’t
27:24
really know what to do with it you know
27:26
the average person doesn’t really know
27:27
how to experience the format’s we know
27:29
it because we work in it right so it’s
27:32
more of the click here for more kind of
27:34
thing than the actual intro to it you
27:37
know stuff that the media outlets have
27:39
done like you know like New York Times
27:41
some of the other you know larger media
27:43
outlets um you know probably a BBC and
27:46
some of the others where they actually
27:48
have these dedicated be our kind of news
27:51
experiences where they could take you
27:52
live in the location so you’re actually
27:55
seeing you know stuff happen I think
27:57
that’s really cool because you know if
28:00
you’re tuning in to some breaking news
28:02
and you can throw on your Google
28:05
cardboard or your your glasses that you
28:07
got at some event you know and just you
28:09
know you could be there you know as a
28:12
spot that whatever is happening I think
28:14
I think that’s really cool for breaking
28:15
news through like 360 and VR but I think
28:18
just from a marketing standpoint it’s
28:20
gonna take a while for that to that
28:22
adoption rate to get higher I mean
28:24
probably what it’s gonna be is the the
28:26
content whatever it is you know someone
28:30
going to a news feed to watch something
28:32
in VR and then oh by the way sponsored
28:36
by and here’s a VR experience of your
28:39
car of the latest jiggered an glam car
28:41
or whatever it might be right yeah
28:44
serving yeah when somebody’s already in
28:47
a VR experience that’s the time to hit
28:48
him with a VR at yep thanks lessons so
28:51
we’re hoping for that always that what
28:54
you’re working on currently them haven’t
28:55
had a lot
28:56
I just as a you know creator of media I
29:00
think it’s exciting and that’s like I’d
29:02
like to see it progress there because I
29:04
think it’s the it’s the best new
29:07
frontier we have I mean you know what
29:11
was it before that was like who HD was
29:13
great but it was really just higher
29:14
resolution of the same thing
29:16
surround sound was kind of higher
29:18
resolution of the same thing and it
29:20
really didn’t take off for the exact
29:22
same reason that most people you know
29:24
even when they do buy a surround sound
29:25
set up they just put all
29:26
speakers in the front of the room yeah
29:31
you know and I think bringing it back to
29:33
voice I think through a VR experience
29:36
you know people can get lost in those
29:37
experiences pretty easily if they’re not
29:39
accustomed to you know doing VR so you
29:44
know voice becomes kind of your guiding
29:46
light helping you understand you know
29:48
what to do next where to go where to
29:50
look you know what to touch what’s a
29:52
click and so I think needing that you
29:55
know calming kind of presence you know
29:57
in your headphones you know while you’re
30:00
kind of you know going through these
30:02
experiences is critical now I know
30:04
you’re a sports fan in and I’m sure you
30:07
watch the Super Bowl and if you did you
30:09
would just say an ad for a beer company
30:11
that was ASMR a girl sitting on the top
30:13
of a waterfall I watched that I watched
30:17
that I thought it was the most
30:19
irritating ad I’ve seen it just it was
30:23
just really drove me a bit nutty what
30:26
was your thoughts on that ad
30:28
well what’s weird about it is it
30:30
actually was relevant for me so I am I
30:33
would say about six weeks before the
30:34
Super Bowl is the first time I had ever
30:36
heard of ASMR and we just got done I’m
30:40
in the middle of creating an album for a
30:42
client right now it’s a tourism client
30:44
and one of the things that we did is we
30:47
went around the state in the US and we
30:50
recorded these raw natural sounds like
30:53
water crashing up on shore and you know
30:55
birds and you know walking on these
30:57
through trails and we recorded like
30:59
hundreds of these like raw sound and our
31:02
plan was kind of turn that into an
31:05
ambient album and I was taking some of
31:09
my colleagues through the concept
31:11
because we’ve already actually recorded
31:12
this we’re already we already have the
31:14
album produced and you know we’re
31:16
getting ready to kind of package it and
31:17
launch it and one of my colleagues was
31:21
have you looked into ASMR and I’m like
31:23
what are you talking about I’ve never
31:24
heard of that and he’s like well you
31:26
gotta you gotta look at this and he sent
31:28
me some YouTube links and I’m like
31:29
millions of views on somebody just
31:31
taking slime and shoving it over a
31:33
microphone head was kind of funny to me
31:34
and then I was starting to think about
31:37
it like wow we’ve got all these sounds
31:39
that could
31:40
potentially I mean I don’t know if
31:42
they’ll create the same effect is like
31:44
some of these ASMR sounds but so now all
31:48
of a sudden if you were to look at my
31:49
presentation deck it’s got sections and
31:51
they’re talking about creating YouTube
31:52
playlist for ASMR so as soon as the the
31:56
michelob ultra spot came out I had given
31:59
my presentation to her client that same
32:03
week after the Superbowl and I actually
32:06
used that as an example I’m like nobody
32:08
in the room probably knows what ASMR is
32:10
but if you were watching the Superbowl
32:11
and seen the McColl turret spot you
32:13
would have learned that and we have all
32:15
these sounds now so we could tap into a
32:17
trend trend so they are you know if
32:20
nothing else it made us look smart yeah
32:23
it’s interesting we saw some ASMR one
32:25
doesn’t say is Mars gonna make mouth
32:28
click Evo talent popular what do you
32:33
mean yeah the funny thing with is a bar
32:36
we’ve talked about this before I could
32:38
see that becoming some kind of
32:39
subliminal advertising you could just
32:43
have you exactly is like yeah it noises
32:46
that make you think about something or
32:48
you know sort of subliminal sort of
32:50
someone talking in the background to be
32:53
used anywhere well if you look at there
32:56
was um IKEA they did at 25 minutes and
33:00
from our spot that they put on YouTube
33:02
that has millions of views got a whole
33:04
bunch of earned coverage and it was all
33:06
geared towards a college audience and
33:09
what they basically did is they created
33:11
a dorm room college dorm room with all
33:14
IKEA products and they had an ASMR
33:17
influencer literally like rubbing their
33:20
hands on the sheets or some of the
33:22
different you know products in the dorm
33:23
room so it was a nice way to showcase
33:25
all these products through and ASMR you
33:28
know perspective what what I should do
33:31
is actually have smell SMR and then they
33:33
could have you smell like a spilt bong
33:34
or something and that would get the
33:35
students in that’s an old thing can I
33:40
still get my one dollar hot dog when I
33:43
know but you can’t have your ramen
33:45
noodles yes
33:50
so what do you reckon the the future of
33:53
voiceover as in advertising or any other
33:56
placement it could be how do you see
33:58
that sort of planning out in the next
33:59
few years I got to imagine that it stays
34:02
just as relevant and just as popular
34:04
that’s always been I mean I don’t have
34:06
any stats that show if there’s any
34:08
decline in it over the last you know
34:10
five to ten years or or an increase but
34:13
you know going back to that point that
34:14
everybody is getting told to produce
34:16
content content content everybody’s
34:18
being told that video performs way
34:20
better than static content within social
34:23
media platforms
34:24
I’ve watched a lot of paid media buys
34:26
all starting to shift towards social
34:29
media and so if that’s the objective if
34:32
the agency is being told make more video
34:34
you know create more you know short form
34:39
you know they’ve got to find a place for
34:41
sound design voice but but at the same
34:43
time you were saying that because you
34:45
know often people are seeing these
34:48
things but they’re not listening or
34:50
they’re turning them off that a lot of
34:51
your focus is more on the visual than on
34:54
the audio because you’re assuming that
34:56
that’s often muted or you know yeah it’s
35:00
true you know it’s not like I you might
35:02
create a ten-second vertical video on
35:04
Facebook that is you know it has like
35:08
really strong typeface to kind of you
35:10
know help you understand the story I
35:12
think the way that we’ve been
35:13
approaching it is if a person casts on
35:15
the video then give them a more
35:16
immersive experience and you might hear
35:18
the voice you might hear the audio and
35:19
music and sound design you know but if
35:22
they choose to kind of just you know
35:23
scroll on it without tapping it they
35:25
still get the message but a lot of times
35:27
what we’re doing is you’re creating that
35:30
content in a package of a lot of other
35:32
content so you might be creating longer
35:35
form videos that are going on the
35:36
website you know we’re going on YouTube
35:38
and then doing these shorter form videos
35:41
that are going on you know Twitter
35:42
Instagram and Facebook ultimately trying
35:44
to drive to the longer form stuff so I
35:47
think you know people are doing bigger
35:49
content packages you know that would
35:51
consist of having voice and you know
35:53
music and sound but they’re cutting it
35:56
in a variety of different ways and I
35:58
know I know it happens to me a lot is if
36:00
I you know because like certain
36:01
platforms will
36:02
play you the video but nicely mute it
36:05
for you because I assume that that’s
36:07
like too intrusive so you go to a web
36:10
page whatever the video starts playing
36:11
and then if it catches your eye then you
36:15
click on the unmute and you’re like what
36:16
is this and then there’s the audio
36:19
content for you but the video is often
36:22
has to be the first like the thing that
36:24
hooks you but you’ve also got yeah
36:27
you’ve also got audio like it if you’re
36:29
a lot of a spend largeman as I did today
36:31
a large part of our life in a car so
36:35
audio is number one in the car yeah and
36:38
I think that the podcast is gonna
36:39
replace it’s just now in these next
36:42
couple years is gonna replace radio yeah
36:44
cuz I satellite radio didn’t take off
36:47
not not really as much but and people
36:50
stayed listening to local radio and
36:52
there was that local tie-in but I think
36:56
that now that essentially you know
36:57
you’re buying cars now that have their
36:59
own internet connection and your phone
37:01
is now essentially the headend for your
37:05
car stereo anyways and so boom here’s my
37:08
playlist and here’s my podcast and I
37:11
think that the podcast is possibly
37:13
becoming the new radio station yeah and
37:16
and and that’s really what Spotify is
37:18
after now yeah this they’ll be so we’ve
37:21
said before they probably like some kind
37:23
of a Spotify
37:24
Spotify version of podcast where you
37:27
have not just modified gimlet media yeah
37:30
I just don’t think it’ll be individual
37:32
podcasts I think you’ll have like
37:33
networks who buy good content yeah I’d
37:37
like the the Netflix of podcasts hasn’t
37:39
totally emerged yet you know there’s the
37:42
slates and the gimlets and those
37:44
channels and those are probably like
37:46
some of the biggest ones that are out
37:48
there but um it hasn’t taken off quite
37:52
the same as something like Netflix but
37:53
I’m sure there’s a you know like a
37:55
subscription service out there that are
37:58
feasibly out there that would be someone
38:00
who wants their podcasts called and
38:03
nicely presented and in an easily
38:05
consumable service well that I think the
38:08
biggest issue they’ve got is they
38:10
haven’t taken hours onboard I mean
38:15
what are they thinking that’s right
38:18
exactly I mean Andrew can talk about
38:23
anything and it’s interesting yeah
38:25
Andrew can talk underwater too I should
38:28
just tell you I think you did on the
38:32
weekend but that was another day how do
38:37
you breathe when you’re like it’s all
38:38
about breath control so how do you do
38:39
that when you’re breathing Wireless
38:58
watching us with one eye
39:03
it’s breaching no we’re heading downhill
39:10
fast we are yeah going back to the Union
39:13
conversation we had a little while ago I
39:15
had a case just recently working on
39:18
actually working on a podcast where I
39:20
was I needed to cast an American voice
39:24
and cast a union voice and compared to
39:30
Australian rates nearly fell over at the
39:34
amount that they were asking this person
39:36
was asking for and I’m interested to
39:39
know whether Ian thinks that sort of the
39:43
the prices that are being charged for
39:46
are actually giving rise to you know
39:50
non-union voices and these voice places
39:52
like voices calm like people with their
39:54
own home studios and all the rest of it
39:57
is that is that a factor in or is it is
39:59
it more just a convenience thing that
40:02
you alluded to before you know I’m like
40:04
the worst person in the world you know
40:06
when it comes to money like I have no
40:07
idea how much anything costs and I’ve
40:10
been most of most of my career I had the
40:13
luxury of working on larger clients or
40:15
larger brands so everybody’s kind of
40:18
bought into the fact that things just
40:20
are expensive hmm and then when I came
40:23
over to my current agency which does a
40:25
lot of you know mostly PR which is much
40:28
scrappier
40:29
it was almost like the opposite like all
40:31
of a sudden Ella I had clients that were
40:33
used to parent you know you know paying
40:35
very little for content you know and you
40:38
know trying to go with like trying to
40:40
sell a PR client on a sad challenge Rach
40:43
would never happen you would have to
40:45
figure out a different way to work on
40:48
now I’m kind of in the middle I’ve got
40:50
half of my clients are kind of more
40:52
scrappy PR clients and the other half of
40:54
my clients are like large you know
40:56
American brands you know that are
40:59
already used to you know kind of sag
41:02
Rach and you know larger scale content
41:04
plays so yeah I haven’t really like I
41:07
personally don’t have a perspective on
41:09
what that challenge charging but I know
41:12
that depending on the type of client I
41:14
work with and if they’re used to working
41:16
with shad Kalin or not no they
41:18
definitely get sticker shock if they’ve
41:20
never worked with fan type of talent
41:23
yeah yes
41:25
like I can I can comment on that a
41:26
little bit I I think I think that the
41:29
sticker shock is a definite factor and I
41:33
think it started around 2000 with the
41:36
first sag strike actually and that’s
41:39
when the agencies began realizing that
41:42
it doesn’t have to be Union and it first
41:45
was like go to Canada and and they had
41:47
to find other you know means around it
41:50
and when they went oh wow that wasn’t so
41:52
bad and that worked and holy cow it was
41:55
like we know we’re talking about like
41:57
ten times less and also I’ve heard
42:01
producers talk about how much you know
42:03
easier it is because the unions have
42:06
like oh well if it’s gonna go on social
42:08
media it’s this and if it’s broadcasting
42:10
here it’s that and all this other stuff
42:11
and then you know a non-union guys like
42:14
well it’s by out for that have fun I’m
42:17
done send me my check yeah and
42:20
simplicity and so I think that for
42:23
various reasons when people have a good
42:27
experience with non-union they kind of
42:31
are pleasantly surprised and then if
42:33
they’re able to I mean if it’s a if it’s
42:36
agency that’s a signature it’s a whole
42:37
different you know to change that it’s
42:40
it but if it’s anything that’s uh
42:42
someone who’s smaller they they’re very
42:46
often pleasantly surprised with how it’s
42:48
not so bad with non-union and there’s a
42:50
lot of like you know like people try to
42:52
put out these horror stories about how
42:54
bad it is but it’s there’s a lot of
42:56
really good non-union talent out there
42:58
quite frankly non-union is fine but it’s
43:00
when it gets into that really scary
43:02
territory where it’s like $1 a holler
43:04
stuff you know someone’s charging 20
43:06
bucks or whatever because I mean Robbo
43:09
and I talked about this the other day
43:10
there was some someone he was working
43:12
with it was kind of that kind of rate
43:13
and we worked it out like if you wanted
43:15
to make a decent living out of doing
43:16
voiceover and you were charging what
43:18
they were charging you would have to do
43:20
20 bookings a day five days a week yeah
43:23
I don’t I don’t think that serious
43:25
brands in serious like you know
43:28
productions are willing to go that low
43:31
because they have a lot of other
43:33
collateral stuff that’s going on so
43:34
they’re paying for a studio they value
43:38
their own time I think that they they
43:42
want to have as close to that Union
43:45
experience as possible and I think
43:47
that’s what they were pleasantly
43:48
surprised by it with was not that they
43:50
initially went after it because of the
43:52
rate they went after it because they had
43:55
to and then when they realized that it
43:58
you know like um the whole you get what
44:00
you pay for thing wasn’t totally true
44:03
like you can pay less and have nearly
44:06
the same thing if you shop in the right
44:08
place that’s the other thing about the
44:10
non-union experience is that you know
44:12
you got to know how to navigate it
44:14
yourself and there’s all kinds of
44:16
pitfalls and other problems whereas the
44:18
the Union atmosphere is much more
44:21
structured and so it’s much harder to
44:23
screw it up compared to non-union where
44:26
it’s very easy to screw it up or book
44:29
the wrong person and you’re paying that
44:30
person anyways and things like that yeah
44:36
we did I just got done working on a
44:39
project where we had celebrity Talent
44:42
and there was two celebrities and
44:44
there’s a TV spot involved and three or
44:47
four different social media executions
44:49
that kind of came out of the TV spot
44:52
three of those executions on social
44:55
different video
44:57
the agents for the celebrities kind of
45:00
considered them alts so they didn’t
45:02
charge anything extra you know to
45:04
utilize their voice on you know those
45:07
executions there was an additional
45:09
social media execution which was for an
45:11
Instagram story that they considered a
45:14
new execution and so the celebrity
45:18
agents came back and said that they
45:19
wanted a hundred thousand dollars each
45:21
for you know to utilize their voices on
45:24
now this this entire you know piece of
45:28
content probably costed no more than
45:30
maybe twenty thousand dollars so clients
45:33
and agency alike weren’t going to spend
45:36
two hundred thousand dollars on the
45:37
voice talent for an execution that was
45:40
no not even a tenth of that so basically
45:43
we went with sound-alikes you know and I
45:46
think it was a tenth of the cost and
45:49
nobody would know the difference right I
45:51
had an experience where we were
45:55
finishing his spot we really had
45:58
everything we wanted it was actually one
46:00
of these sessions where we had like
46:02
three talent they were I think it was
46:05
two different studios and three talent
46:06
like you know one remote as a sort of a
46:09
collaborative interaction and at the
46:12
very end the I don’t know who it was the
46:15
writer of the art director somebody says
46:17
why don’t you improvise one and they do
46:20
it was great
46:21
and I don’t know that we even used it
46:23
and I don’t think we did but then the
46:25
next day all the agents hit them up with
46:29
like triple fees for improvising oh and
46:35
it was like what not to say in session
46:36
yeah and and so it’s like those kinds of
46:40
experiences where they’re just like you
46:42
know there’s this way less red tape with
46:45
you with non-union and that’s that’s
46:47
sort of where I’ve seen it it’s not so
46:49
much I mean and even if the issue wasn’t
46:53
the prices like you know a lot of the
46:55
times I’ve seen it with the agencies
46:56
where it’s horrible to go back and have
46:57
to rebut something so even if they have
47:00
the money it’s just a big giant hassle
47:03
they have to you know tell tell their
47:05
client it’s going to cause more get all
47:07
that paperwork done and that’s where
47:09
people become
47:10
happy about that so I don’t know that
47:15
non-union is so much driven on fee as it
47:18
is on ease with the fee being a really
47:22
kick-ass bonus the interesting thing
47:24
about Union which I completely blew my
47:27
mind when I first started talking with
47:28
Jim in New York and he’s a paymaster was
47:32
he told me how the structure worked
47:33
which can seem really confusing because
47:36
in say for instance two jobs a thousand
47:38
dollar job so he will sit there and
47:41
he’ll write four checks one to himself
47:45
above line one to the agent below line
47:50
and then one to sag above line so
47:54
basically you’ve got 260 bucks above
47:59
line on the thousand dollar fee so you
48:02
go it’s gonna cost you a thousand bucks
48:03
and you get an invoice for twelve
48:05
hundred and sixty you go why is it well
48:06
you said thousand oh yeah because that’s
48:08
um that’s because you got the paymaster
48:12
fee and you’ve got the sag-aftra fee
48:15
like buying a car yes it is exactly like
48:17
buying a car I tell you what it makes
48:19
the Australian model look simple
48:21
seriously it does it is so simple here
48:23
for those for those who are sort of
48:25
across the other side of the Pacific
48:27
Ocean we basically so say I’m casting a
48:32
national TV commercial for a client it’s
48:35
three hundred and eighty dollars for a
48:39
30-second spot is that right okay it’s
48:42
not radio yeah radio and then you’re
48:45
done pulling x-33 330 for us one state
48:49
short-term okay so let’s just call a
48:51
four hundred thirty bucks no residual no
48:53
residuals no nothing you get your four
48:55
hundred and fifty dollars I get an
48:56
invoice from Andrews agent send in the
48:59
chat send them the check they take their
49:01
twelve thirteen percent Andrew gets the
49:03
rest but if I turn around at the end of
49:06
the session and say to a PE mate I think
49:07
we’ve got everything but give me one how
49:09
you hear it it doesn’t cost me any more
49:11
because that’s like because that’s what
49:13
I’m paying for
49:14
I’m paying for him to come and interpret
49:16
my scripts so it’s really interesting
49:18
because it’s saying you didn’t say
49:21
improvisers because all the time it’s
49:23
like have I asked him
49:24
advised it wouldn’t cost me if I asked
49:25
him for a character that would cost me
49:28
more that’s another 150 180 bucks or
49:30
something but if I asked him to
49:32
improvise that’s all part of the fee
49:35
I’ve seen it before where some talent
49:38
you know like they they get into the
49:41
argument of that’s another version or
49:43
not another town are just very clearly
49:45
happy to have the gig and sure I’ll read
49:48
another one and would you like me to do
49:49
something on your voicemail and they’re
49:51
not gonna go tattletaling to their agent
49:54
about every little thing that they might
49:56
be able to milk out of the client and so
49:59
it but I there’s a lot less of that
50:03
certainly I’d say on the nonunions yet I
50:07
get the feeling because there’s there’s
50:09
fewer rules the more I hear about the
50:11
Union side of things with voice over in
50:13
the States the more I think they’re just
50:14
doing themselves a massive disservice
50:16
seriously they’ve got to be really care
50:18
I mean there’s a reason for it and I
50:19
absolutely hundred percent but get-get
50:22
the reason why you want to be sag AFTRA
50:23
because you know like unlike here in
50:26
Australia we have free health insurance
50:28
and we have free pension but in the
50:31
state’s you don’t so what you get by
50:32
being a member of the Union is you get
50:34
your health and you get your pension and
50:38
that’s why they want to do it and it
50:39
makes complete sense I think that it’s
50:42
not just that you have a you have an
50:44
agent that’s gonna fight for you you
50:46
have rates that you know what they are
50:47
you know how to negotiate everything
50:49
individually I think that a non-union
50:52
talent is very often in the position of
50:54
having to do all of that themselves and
50:57
and so I think that I think the reason
51:00
why the union thing works is because you
51:04
have a very well defined talent base you
51:06
know you’re gonna get quality you know
51:08
exactly how it’s gonna be executed even
51:12
though it’s complex it’s like it’s a set
51:14
of rules that works the same for
51:16
everybody so so you can kind of put it
51:19
through the machine and it always works
51:20
and and with non-union it’s it’s always
51:24
a like how does this go like how we
51:27
gonna do it this time how we’re gonna do
51:28
at that time but from both sides I mean
51:30
like maybe the talents looking at and
51:32
going like they’re only paying this much
51:34
for these many spots like oh really
51:36
or vice versa
51:38
you know maybe they find a talent they
51:40
want and this talent tries to build
51:43
things differently than that talent
51:44
there’s less structure and I think that
51:46
that’s where you so you so you get the
51:49
benefit of lower cost probably fewer
51:53
rules but you know the downside is
51:57
probably you have more variability to
51:59
well here’s one for both of you in fact
52:01
probably all three of you because with
52:03
real time casting you’re involved in the
52:04
u.s. voiceover market as well ap looking
52:07
true down look down the track ten years
52:09
for me thinking about sort of younger
52:14
creatives younger you know content
52:18
creators coming up through the ranks who
52:21
doing business online is basically
52:24
second nature to and then thinking about
52:27
the discussion we’ve had in the last 40
52:29
minutes taking on board everything we’ve
52:31
spoken about do you think these online
52:33
agencies are only gonna get stronger or
52:35
do you think they’re gonna go away do
52:37
you want me to answer first
52:38
well yeah you go around the table let’s
52:39
start with you I think my theory is that
52:42
I think they will shrink I think the
52:45
industry a lot of the debris that’s on
52:47
the you know that the the masses that
52:49
are claiming to be voice talent will
52:51
start to disappear I’m hoping that the
52:56
quality will come back where people
52:57
expect quality and they won’t accept
52:59
anything less which then makes everybody
53:01
has to step up but I also think that
53:05
people are gonna start going back to
53:06
their little community I don’t think
53:07
they’ll just throw scripts out you know
53:10
to thousands of people to audition for I
53:12
think they’ll get to know a group and
53:14
they’ll stick to that group I think
53:15
it’ll go back that way that’s my feeling
53:17
could be completely wrong I think it’s
53:21
gonna go completely gig economy do you
53:23
think so
53:24
we were absolutely I I think it’s just
53:27
it’s too easy for everyone to get into
53:31
it and there’s a lot of turnover in the
53:35
you know like so everyone’s used to
53:38
buying things online and so as long as
53:40
it’s online and there’s people who are
53:42
jumping in on the supply side and the
53:44
demand side and all they know is online
53:47
I think it’s inevitably all online
53:49
eventually I think it’s going to be
53:50
online
53:51
not disputing that but I don’t I don’t
53:52
think it’s gonna be like a free-for-all
53:54
I think it will narrow right down I I
53:56
think it will narrow down I think there
53:58
will be a few sites the corner them you
53:59
get I think we’ve seen that with
54:01
voices.com
54:02
there’s been pushback but I think that
54:05
is that’s just the way big business goes
54:08
and there’s gonna be look I think the
54:11
first one that comes in you know that is
54:13
completely transparent that still gets
54:15
the work for people and it’s quality
54:19
controlled so you make sure whoever’s on
54:20
there is you know can actually do what
54:22
they the claim to do and their home
54:24
studios are high quality and all that
54:26
kind of stuff then people will feel more
54:27
much more comfortable about it but it
54:29
also means the industry will shrink into
54:31
you know maybe a couple buckets yeah
54:36
we’ve had a vote each way let’s um let’s
54:39
decide the winner and what was what’s
54:41
your thoughts on all this I you know I I
54:44
think I was interpreting it different in
54:46
my head I was just trying to I was
54:48
thinking about the fat pad you know I’ve
54:50
got a nine year old daughter who’s got a
54:52
YouTube channel and she’s got her own
54:54
microphones she’s got her own camera
54:56
equipment she’s got her own tripods her
54:58
own green screen and she’s nine her
55:00
seven-year-old brother knows how to use
55:02
that equipment it’s like if you’re if
55:05
you’re Genji right now and you’re
55:06
graduated college you grew up knowing
55:09
how to be on camera you grew up you know
55:13
hearing what your voice sounded like you
55:16
know I think for most of us the first
55:18
time you kind of heard your voice was
55:19
when you heard it on like a voicemail or
55:20
I know somebody’s answering machines
55:23
near like oh that’s what I sound like
55:25
you know and you know these days are
55:28
learning huh you know they’re hearing
55:29
their voice and they’re learning how to
55:31
talk into can’t are talking to
55:32
microphones and adjust their voice at a
55:35
very young age you know so you’ve got a
55:39
whole you know generation of content
55:41
creators right now that know how to
55:44
create know how to use all the modern
55:46
tools know what they like and and
55:51
they’re very authentic about how they go
55:53
about it and you know hence the
55:55
explosion of snapchat and you know just
55:57
story based content like Instagram
55:59
stories and things like that so so I
56:02
don’t really know where it’s going to go
56:03
but I think you know
56:05
you know a lot more people are going to
56:06
feel like they can do it themselves or
56:08
they know somebody who who can get them
56:11
what they need you know whether it’s a
56:12
friend another design if I’m in Osada
56:14
you know shoot a camera a friend that
56:17
knows how to UM you know be challenged
56:20
on screen or people we found you know on
56:22
screen or on camera and it’ll be
56:26
interesting to see how that plays out
56:27
and we’re already seeing it with all
56:29
these influencers and influence or based
56:31
networks and stuff like that it’s just
56:33
you know voice is kind of another angle
56:35
of that you know just like they have
56:37
some our stuff you know how many of
56:38
these are whisper you know you know add
56:42
some more people and know are going to
56:43
go off and do other forms of you know
56:46
radio and podcast and stuff like that
56:48
because they made a name for themselves
56:50
doing you know those such videos so so
56:53
when people are looking for talent be it
56:55
video editing voice-over etc do you
57:00
think it just becomes who you know and
57:03
and the market is sort of just out there
57:06
in the general social media and social
57:08
platforms and just where people are or
57:12
do you think it all funnels into a few
57:14
conduits like if you want to get driven
57:17
someplace it’s uber if you want to get a
57:19
voiceover it’s XYZ website if you want
57:22
to find a video editor it’s you know de
57:25
f website well I don’t know no I mean I
57:29
mean I think you’re always gonna have I
57:30
think it’s just the creative industry in
57:32
general the more that we could see each
57:34
other and be around each other tend to
57:36
create other relationships you know you
57:39
get used to the people you work with you
57:41
get people used to the people that you
57:42
kind of outsource you know you work out
57:44
– I just think that there’s going to be
57:47
maybe just a lot more you know 20 20 30
57:50
years ago there was only so many people
57:53
that knew how to do or work those
57:55
technologies may not have used those
57:56
cameras use that equipment understood
57:58
how to shoot certain things got a
58:00
photographic vehicle and things like
58:02
that and as you know that specialty work
58:04
I think there’s more people that are
58:05
accepting good enough and you know so
58:08
you’re always going to have your
58:09
specialists and your high quality talent
58:11
your higher quality shops but there’s
58:15
going to be a lot more clients that are
58:16
going to say
58:17
yeah well I know a friend who can do
58:19
that so I don’t want to pay that much
58:21
for it when I know people because I can
58:23
do it for less I mean I see it all the
58:25
time like I don’t work too much in uh
58:26
and you know app or web development
58:28
anymore but now it’s like Squarespace
58:31
you know and wicks and Weebly you know
58:35
everybody’s friend that knows how to
58:36
code and WordPress website clients don’t
58:39
want to pay for that anymore they’d
58:40
rather put the money in the content and
58:42
the actual build of you know the website
58:44
and you know so a lot of those web shops
58:46
just kind of went under because of it
58:47
and so yeah I don’t I don’t really know
58:50
exactly where it’s going to go I just
58:52
think there’s more people out there that
58:53
are going to be able to do what skilled
58:56
professionals we’re the only ones able
58:58
to do they’re all back in the day yeah
59:00
it’ll become less of a black art and
59:02
they’ll become more right commodity sure
59:06
I I just wanted to round back actually
59:09
to the sort of in house out of house
59:12
thing and to what degree does the like
59:18
like the in house you’re working with
59:20
the same group of people so there’s a
59:21
consistency there’s an immediacy and and
59:25
there’s that aspect of it and
59:27
traditionally the out of house thing you
59:30
know whatever there’s been this like we
59:31
are experts but there’s also been the
59:34
and I’ve always I’ve often felt this you
59:36
know just working at various post houses
59:38
where there’s a lot of other incentives
59:43
that are thrown out there whatever it is
59:47
like tickets
59:48
and food and you name it does this
59:52
generation care about that anymore
59:54
yeah like all the perks you know I you
59:58
know I don’t I don’t know I you know I
60:00
really don’t I mean I’m I’m 41 now you
60:04
know it’s still kind of nice to go to an
60:05
edit studio and get a free lunch no but
60:09
but I’m also too busy and a lot of times
60:12
quick as I can get out of that at this
60:13
video I’m getting out of there and I’m
60:15
trying to jump onto something and also I
60:16
you know I think there’s something um
60:18
you know I think everybody likes the
60:22
perk here there but I just think um
60:23
least most of the younger talent that
60:26
I’m seeing they don’t even realize a lot
60:28
of that exists you know and they are
60:30
waiting with
60:32
option III think they don’t even know
60:35
how it used to be I mean used to have
60:38
your coke and your weed nowadays you’ve
60:41
got a window yeah all right exactly you
60:44
used a razor blade to what sorry and yes
60:52
I’m interested to just it I mean there’s
60:55
there’s the following on from what
60:57
Robert asked you there there is the nice
60:58
side of things absolutely in terms of
61:00
you know drugs and lunches and all the
61:02
rest of it but what about the other
61:03
things that come with sitting in an edit
61:05
suite in terms of being able to direct
61:07
talent and sort of get an ID and sort of
61:11
feel immersed in the recording like
61:13
sitting there watching as the pictures
61:15
go through while the voiceovers doing
61:17
the voice-over for your TV commercial is
61:19
that sort of stuff important anymore
61:21
or is that sort of with with voices calm
61:24
where you send the script and you get it
61:25
back is that sort of stuff going by the
61:27
wayside no I I don’t think anything
61:30
replaces being able to sit there in the
61:32
other studio and kind of be a part of
61:33
what’s being created I think that um so
61:36
key
61:37
especially when you have you know higher
61:40
priority works you know or work that has
61:43
a quick turnaround where you don’t
61:44
really have the time to to screw up you
61:48
know and you’ve basically got to get it
61:49
right on the first first go yeah I call
61:52
that pin the tail on the donkey
61:53
production yeah the tail on the donkey
61:56
like there yeah there there eventually
61:59
you get pretty close and you never hit
62:00
it right on because you’re just tired of
62:02
telling the person that they’re off just
62:04
on the back of that question then you
62:06
know I’m interested in your thoughts
62:07
with advent of source connect and their
62:11
products or source elements and their
62:13
products that are bouncing around at the
62:15
moment and and the possibilities that
62:16
become you know the faster the Internet
62:19
becomes the more the possibilities
62:21
become infinite if you could sit in your
62:24
office and do all that from your office
62:27
see the voice-over town and in the booth
62:29
watch the pictures go by as is voicing
62:31
does that is that an option or is that
62:34
is that a way that things might go or is
62:36
there nothing that replaces sitting in
62:37
that room with the engineer having those
62:39
conversations I don’t know I haven’t
62:41
done it the other way yeah yeah I think
62:43
if you know I would
62:45
you know if I were to sit in my office
62:46
and be able to kind of direct and edit
62:49
you know while feeling like I’m in the
62:51
studio and the outcome was just as
62:54
strong then I would do it again but if
62:58
the outcome wasn’t as strong and I don’t
63:00
know right III think it goes away so so
63:03
here’s another sort of more back to the
63:06
in-house outhouse thing how much of the
63:10
creative interplay and the dynamic
63:14
changes when you’re working with fellow
63:17
employees compared to a client vendor
63:19
relationship
63:20
well client you know vendors never say
63:24
no to you right so you know they might
63:27
turn around and complain back to their
63:29
superiors and say and I’ve got seven
63:31
projects going on which one do you want
63:32
me to do it this clients asking me to
63:34
make xx change too you know and edit but
63:39
they always seem to figure out a way to
63:41
you know meet your delivery needs
63:44
in-house you know is a little bit
63:46
different because you know you’ve got a
63:48
project manager or somebody who’s kind
63:50
of looking at all the projects and if
63:51
you you know throw a change in in the
63:54
final hour and it’s gonna disrupt
63:56
something you know they’ll make that
63:58
known but at the same time I I haven’t
64:02
ran in it really any issues internally
64:06
with anybody um
64:08
I guess pushing back you know you know
64:12
but at the same time I think the lease
64:15
in my agency there’s a pretty good
64:17
hierarchy you know and we don’t like
64:19
it’s not like we’re trying to create in
64:21
kind of a system where you fear the
64:24
creative directors and things like that
64:25
but um but they do know who’s ultimately
64:28
responsible for the decision at the end
64:30
of the day you know so I think if if an
64:34
editors dealing with a junior creative
64:36
team and editor Note has more experience
64:38
and they feel have to change that’s
64:40
being asked for it ideal they might push
64:43
back on it a little bit but if the
64:45
creative director comes in and you know
64:47
makes a call you know everybody just as
64:49
yours I think you actually in-house you
64:51
can probably get changes made fast or as
64:54
long as the in-house team
64:57
is run efficiently where they’re you
65:00
know they’re not overbooked and so they
65:03
are able to be responsive and and then
65:06
there are even more responsive than an
65:08
out of house place can be because
65:09
they’re right down the hall you just
65:11
walk in be like hey can you pop this
65:13
open can you change that and and they do
65:15
or is that if not that’s a phone call
65:18
the producer has to convey that to the
65:21
whoever the editor is etc and so what
65:24
could probably be done in the same
65:25
office in 15 minutes takes an hour to go
65:27
you know out a house and that’s the same
65:30
argument with like home studios to if I
65:33
have to do a pickup I just drop me an
65:35
email that’s sent straight back to them
65:37
so instead of having you know someone
65:39
booked them drive into science you know
65:41
that kind of caper
65:42
III think I think it is a faster world
65:44
that’s for sure what about one of the
65:46
difficult things that I do not know
65:48
there sir with which I’m curious to see
65:51
how things you know evolve over the next
65:52
five to ten years is you’ve got a lot of
65:55
industries now that are starting to
65:57
build their own creative outlets like
65:58
keep in mind like I work for a PR
66:00
company I traditionally known as a PR
66:01
company but now we’re kind of doing
66:03
advertising and various digital
66:05
marketing and social and things like
66:06
that so you’ve got these PR companies
66:10
that are building creative teams you’ve
66:12
got clients that are building their own
66:14
in-house training teams but most of them
66:18
lack any type of real creative
66:20
leadership they’re really kind of built
66:21
more like design studios you know with
66:24
some writers and and because of that
66:28
it’s more about just the execution
66:30
that’s don’t create any of those
66:31
creative at creating a desperate me of
66:33
that and they’re just reacting to
66:34
whatever gets created as opposed to
66:37
having like real creative directors that
66:39
understand the essence of a brand and
66:41
understand how to kind of utilize the
66:43
tools around them as opposed to the
66:45
tools that they have available you know
66:47
on their team so I think I you know a
66:50
lot of teams wouldn’t even know to go
66:52
you know cast a voiceover challenge they
66:55
were just you know figure it out
66:58
in-house and I’m seeing that like even
67:01
in my agency that that’s kind of how my
67:03
art team was before I started there as
67:05
they were just executing and when I look
67:07
across our network of different you know
67:09
you know offices for my
67:11
there’s a lot of people that have the
67:13
title creative director but there’s very
67:14
few actual correctors and that goes for
67:17
a lot of emails client teens to I I
67:20
think I’ve seen this go I don’t know if
67:23
it’s full circle or just some sort of
67:24
tie the knot kind of thing but um so you
67:28
had end clients hiring agencies going
67:32
out to you know vendors to get the job
67:36
done to the creative content made and
67:38
then recently the ad agencies have been
67:42
trying to pull all that in-house but the
67:44
thing where it’s like kind of inverted
67:45
and gotten upside down I’ve seen this at
67:48
least once where a major company they
67:51
went out and they basically hired art
67:53
directors and writers directly from an
67:55
agency and then instead of building an
67:57
in-house we’re gonna make our own videos
67:59
they just began using vendors and they
68:02
just basically like cut the agency right
68:04
out of it and hired the people from the
68:06
agency and did that go wrong the product
68:10
was similar to anything else that we
68:12
have produced you know because the
68:15
writers came I I think where it goes
68:17
wrong is when there’s no more agencies
68:19
to mentor any creatives but in this
68:23
particular case these guys came out of
68:25
you know they were they were from a I
68:28
mean like an agency that was doing
68:31
national spots and big campaigns and
68:33
they just got you know hired to work
68:36
directly for one of their clients and
68:38
you can see why you do and the only
68:39
difference to me which I was pleasantly
68:41
surprised was like well they they went
68:44
over and kind of you know grabbed their
68:46
own talent from the you know writing and
68:49
an art directing point of view but they
68:51
didn’t go through all the trouble of you
68:53
know creating a whole you know corner of
68:55
their office where they’ve got a
68:56
production department they said we’re
68:58
just gonna go to some out of house
69:00
vendors and get that done that way yes
69:03
he did things like that is definitely
69:04
changing and that’s I mean we’ve talked
69:06
about one of the clients that I had that
69:08
is doing a very similar thing but um
69:11
that’s the story for another day I think
69:12
because that’s an interesting one in
69:14
itself yeah I kind of turned the whole
69:16
thing into get out and I haven’t seen a
69:18
lot of it but I when I saw it I was like
69:19
this is definitely new yeah
69:24
and and and for me I mean a little bit
69:29
pleasantly surprising simply because the
69:32
agencies have been pushing back so hard
69:34
on the you know create putting
69:36
everything in-house that it’s it’s
69:40
definitely like you know where does that
69:42
leave the the individual vendors it’s a
69:45
tough position for them yeah
69:47
should we wind up I think we should I
69:50
think we’ve monopolized enough of IANS
69:52
time today thank you very much Inc we
69:53
have so thank you very much here you go
69:57
always a pleasure to have you on the
69:59
show and thank you all the best with
70:01
your new venture well relative new
70:03
anyway thank you very much that was the
70:06
pro audio suite if you have any
70:08
questions or ideas for a show let us
70:10
know fire our facebook the pro audio
70:13
suite podcast
70:18
you
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